Curse

Freyas · Mar 29, 2005, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Major/Superior vigor runes are allowed on PvP characters. There's only one slot for vigor runes in the rune list, though, since once you unlock a major/superior vigor, you don't have the option of using a minor one- there's no point, since the major and superior varieties are strictly superior to the minor ones.

Ellestar · Mar 29, 2005, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharalon

So RP characters should always be at a disadvantage? I'm 100% certain that is not what the devs want. They're trying to develop a system that appeases both camp and yet does not result in a wholely segregated community.

RP characters shouldn't be at a disadvantage when they're fully levelled and equipped - in that case they should be equal to PvP characters. Obviously, RP characters that are not fully levelled and equipped are always at a disadvantage compared to fully levelled and equipped RP characters and so to a PvP characters too.
So, what exactly is wrong with that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharalon

Besides, people aren't going to grind 100-200 hours, to get 1 extra mod on a weapon, only to have their build become obsolete a week later. I doubt you'll ever see an RP character in top tier PvP, even if you let them have a "free" mod on a weapon. The returns just aren't there for the time invested, and the returns are too easily nullified by changes in the metagame.

For example, noone will grind just a lousy (by MMORPG standarts) 100 hours before, say, a 30.000$ tournament like the one that's going on in Korea. Or maybe someone will grind?
If RP chars can be more powerful in PvP than PvP chars, then it creates problems mostly in a high-competitive PvP settings because every little bit counts and you must use whatever means available to be more powerful. At the same time, "free" mod on a weapon will not help roleplayers or PvE players to compete better because this game is too skill-dependant. There will not be any significant difference, with better items or without them, if someone isn't a part of an experienced PvP team.

Builds don't become obsolete in a week. That's an obvious exaggeration. Also, the core of a major percent of the builds doesn't change and skills aren't a problem (also, you need them anyway on a PvE char to unlock skills on a PvP char). And you can buy items so you aren't exactly forced to farm 100-200 hours to get an item you need if there are some balance changes. It's true that it will take far more time to change PvE chars compared to PvP chars, especially on a long run, but it's not like you need to remake a new char and start from the scratch all the time. If you have one or two primary RP chars you use in PvP, then it's possible to keep them up to date if you have a lot of free time and if RP chars are more powerful. And that defeats a purpose why PvP chars were implemented because you will need to use RP chars to be competitive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharalon

I want to see a situation where a good RP toon is competitive in your average casual PvP matchup. For that to happen, they need to have some advantages to combat their inherintly static nature.

Why RP toon should have an advantages to be competitive in an average causal PvP matchup? Obviously, in that matchup almost noone will know the right skills/items to use, players will not change builds after each balance change etc. So, there will be no problem with the fact that RP chars are more static.

Cleocatra · Mar 29, 2005, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Wow, this thread got off-topic really fast didn't it?

On the subject of PvP characters, I have to agree that they should be just as powerful as RP characters. The problem here has nothing to do with the items available to the PvP characters; it has to do with the fact that good items are so rare to RP characters.

The system like it is, however, is workable. These good items now no longer require a lot of grind to get if you can make a PvP character with them, which helps the PvPers. PvE people tend to like to explore and find new stuff anyway, so this doesn't really affect the PvEers. Besides, if one side absolutely must have access to better items than the other, it is a whole lot easier for a PvE player to roll a PvP character than it is for a PvP player to go roll a PvE character.

Virtuoso · Mar 29, 2005, 03:07 PM // 15:07

My only problem with the PvP character "unlocking" system is that it encourages people and guilds to re-roll their character far too often. Having problem with a certain guild? Re-roll your character to specifically fight them! Not happy with your flavor-of-last-month? Re-roll your flavor-of-this-month! Not to mention that it will be difficult to tell who is who with all the new characters flying around. "Oh, look - there's guild XXX. Hey, who's in that guild anyways? <shrug> I don't know. I never see the same character twice."

-Virt

Viktor · Mar 29, 2005, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Right, there need to be little perks to RP characters to make up for the fact that they can't be re-rolled at a moment's notice. Things like the Dragon Sword are one thing - modifiers or weapon mod combinations that aren't available on PvP characters are another. I also noticed that you couldn't unlock Major/Superior Vigor runes, which is also a plus.

I'm really surprised to hear this from you, of all people.

If superior vigor runes weren't available to PvP characters what competitive guild would bring 8 premades to a battle then?

Obviously the big item advantage for PvP chars during the March event was bad. Ideally no character-type should have an advantage, but giving it to the RP chars would be the worst option as it just reintroduces 'pve-grind' for the pvpers, because the premades might no longer be viable. And we’re moving away from that skill beats time spent playing or whatever Anet’s slogan is.

On the other hand, the only thing that's stopping some RP players from creating PvP chars, that I’ve noticed so far, would be some mental blockage that tells 'em they don't deserve levels 1-20 for free, and I hardly see why ArenaNet should have to reward such thinking.

If Anet can’t find that perfect balance between the two character types, then an RP player that wants to PvP (PvP in an über-competitively fashion, that is) should simply expect to use 1 of his 4 character slots on a PvP char so he can also re-roll if needed.

walder · Mar 29, 2005, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Whats wrong with letting any item in the game be unlocked for any PvP character. RP shouldn't get a boost just because they grinded their way to lvl 20 instead of just being there. As long as any item can be unlocked for the PvP list then it doesn't favor one side or the other because really, PvPers and RPers found the item the same way, one just didn't transfer the item.

Weezer_Blue · Mar 29, 2005, 09:19 PM // 21:19

So what exactly got nerfed? I didn't use any conjures this weekend and there is nothing in the skill description to describe what happened... Is it that you now require a certain item to use the skill... Like I'd need a shocking bow string to use conjure lightning?

Ensign · Mar 29, 2005, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellestar

RP characters shouldn't be at a disadvantage when they're fully levelled and equipped - in that case they should be equal to PvP characters.

The problem comes in no small part from the 'fully equipped' part. Remember that the PvE part of the game is going to run on item grind. As a result, any character without 'perfect' equipment, AKA, all of them, would be strictly inferior to a PvP clone of himself. Notice how RP characters have access to PvP areas? They should be able to play in those areas without getting laughed at, and 'perfect' PvP characters would accomplish just that.

Plus even if a RP character did have a set of top notch equipment, they are so much more inflexible than re-rolling PvP characters that they're at a sizable disadvantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellestar

At the same time, "free" mod on a weapon will not help roleplayers or PvE players to compete better because this game is too skill-dependant. There will not be any significant difference, with better items or without them, if someone isn't a part of an experienced PvP team.

What I don't like is exactly what you're thinking here - the sharp divide between PvE and PvP, both in players and characters. This is not supposed to be two separate games that just happen to be running on the same engine. The game isn't supposed to have PvE characters and PvP characters - it's supposed to just have characters, period. PvP characters are supposed to be a way for people to jump into PvP and be competitive more quickly, or for long time players to switch characters easily without having to redo everything again. What it is not is a mechanism to completely obsolesce any character that is not a PvP character.

I don't think that there need to be significant advantages, but there need to be advantages. A player should not play through the entire game, reach the Tombs, and feel like he needs to create a PvP carbon copy of himself if he's to compete.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellestar

Builds don't become obsolete in a week. That's an obvious exaggeration.

If the game is competitive and running 24 hours a day, it might happen even more quickly than that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellestar

Why RP toon should have an advantages to be competitive in an average causal PvP matchup?

Because a 'normal' character should not be playable only in 'casual PvP'. If only PvP characters made ten minutes ago are competitive in serious, competitive PvP, something is seriously wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viktor

Ideally no character-type should have an advantage, but giving it to the RP chars would be the worst option as it just reintroduces 'pve-grind' for the pvpers, because the premades might no longer be viable.

I think that creating a sharp PvE character / PvP character divide is a *much* bigger problem than a character with a 1000 hour lifetime having a couple of small advantages over a character with a 10 minute lifetime.

The *entire* problem is the item grind in the rest of the game. The items available to PvP characters are simply unavailable in the rest of the game world. If a player with a normal character could reasonably acquire top-end gear than this whole debate would be moot. But, simply, he cannot.

These minor advantages for normal characters are there to compensate for item availability issues. It means that a perfect RP character will have very small advantages over a brand new PvP character, while a typical RP character will likely still be at a disadvantage overall, but at least will have some advantages to compensate.

I'm not looking at this as much from a competitive PvP perspective, as a holistic game design perspective. Clearly imbalances are a problem in competitive PvP. But not being able to compete with a character that you have spent a hundred hours on is a *huge* problem, and I'm completely unwilling to introduce huge game design problems to solve relatively minor ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viktor

then an RP player that wants to PvP...should simply expect to use 1 of his 4 character slots on a PvP char so he can also re-roll if needed.

Ignore the silly divide between 'PvE' and 'PvP' players again. There are simply players. The divide, if it exists at all, is only in very vocal minorities on either side of the spectrum - and as of a week or so ago, in actual characters themselves.

Doesn't it strike you as problematic that a player who wants to PvP should expect to use freshly rolled PvP characters to exclusion? Up until a week or so ago, you just had characters - characters that you'd play with on missions, or trade with, or take into the Tombs for PvP. Now that's been shattered and we have 'PvP only' character and 'everything but PvP' characters. How is that not a bad thing?

The point of PvP characters, as conceptualized, is to act as a *supplement*, a way for people to switch characters if they need to fill a different role without having to level from 1 to 20 all over again. That's a pretty far cry from a *replacement*, which they are in danger of becoming.

All I want to avoid is a situation where a player has two characters on his account - his hammer using Warrior/Monk that he's put 1000 hours into, and the PvP hammer Warrior/Monk that's a clone of his other WaMo, but with better equipment. Players should never feel compelled to create clones of their characters to PvP. Period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by walder

Whats wrong with letting any item in the game be unlocked for any PvP character.

Nothing. The issue isn't with the items that can be unlocked - the issue is with the max damage, low requirement, perfect mod rares with free upgrade slots that every PvP character gets handed. Unlike upgrade components and runes that get traded on the open market, these items might theoretically exist but in practice just are not available. Once a RP character can reasonably acquire a 9 requirement, 15-28 Flatbow with the appropriate +15% damage modifier and free upgrade slots, then this issue will be considered solved.

Peace,
-CxE

cpukilla · Mar 29, 2005, 10:38 PM // 22:38

At release why not simply eliminate the starting pvp character weapons/items. Force them to only use weapons with stats they have found in game. It would work fine for release because you would have those items already from playing through pve. It does not work for a weekend though because you may not have a good lvl 20 item or weapon, so it must be provided. Simply taking out the starter equipment or replacing it with toned down versions at release would solve the imbalance.

Shrapnel_Magnet · Mar 29, 2005, 11:07 PM // 23:07

I have to agree with cpukilla... If the highest damage bow you've found is a 13-24 damage short bow with a marksmenship requirement of 10... then that's the best that you can run on a PvP-Only character. But I guess that still doesn't stop the need to "clone" your characters.

One thing I did notice... you can customize weapons you FIND with your characters to get that +20%, but you can't do so with PvP-Only characters because they are already customized, so you may get that +15% damage mod, but you'll never get that +20% damage customization that you'd get if you had to find the weapon yourself.

Thundermaine Hilts · Mar 29, 2005, 11:26 PM // 23:26

I have to agree with Shrapnel on this one, the game as it is played from the standpoint of PvE and PvP, should give the power to the ones that have earned it through game play and combat. If the PvP characters were to get the same advantages as those who earned the special weapons through adventure, then the game would not hold as much value as it now does.

I also believe that if all the people interested in playing PvP, were to be required to play PvE to advance to level 20, then the game would truely be greater than it is now for those playing PvP.

One final thought, to wonder... what it would be, and then learn from all before advancing, that is when you gain true wisdom and insight to what you seek.
The game is great, and don't fix it if it ain't broke!

Lazarous · Mar 29, 2005, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensign

Doesn't it strike you as problematic that a player who wants to PvP should expect to use freshly rolled PvP characters to exclusion? Up until a week or so ago, you just had characters - characters that you'd play with on missions, or trade with, or take into the Tombs for PvP. Now that's been shattered and we have 'PvP only' character and 'everything but PvP' characters. How is that not a bad thing?

The point of PvP characters, as conceptualized, is to act as a *supplement*, a way for people to switch characters if they need to fill a different role without having to level from 1 to 20 all over again. That's a pretty far cry from a *replacement*, which they are in danger of becoming.

All I want to avoid is a situation where a player has two characters on his account - his hammer using Warrior/Monk that he's put 1000 hours into, and the PvP hammer Warrior/Monk that's a clone of his other WaMo, but with better equipment. Players should never feel compelled to create clones of their characters to PvP. Period.

A couple of things with what you wrote:

With regards to how it could not be a bad thing to have pvp and non-pvp characters available, I see it as a wonderful thing. Right now, guild wars strikes me as a adaptation of something like magic the gathering and diablo - and as such will appeal to very different varieties of people with its various components. I *like* fighting smart, unpredictable, powerful but evenly matched and numbered opponents where decisions i make affect the outcome of the battle in real ways. I don't like fighting hordes of brainless hp sinks whose sole purpose is to act as a speedbump to my progress. Thus I enjoy pvp, and don't particularly enjoy pve. There are distinctions between these two gametypes because there are distinctions in how the game is played between them. Skills that are of minimal or no use in pvp are of supreme use in pve and vice versa, mostly because of weak AI (not said as a jibe at programmers, but more as a understandable weakness) and the subsequent increase in creature power to compensate.

It follows that characters created to deal with a specific situation (pve) would be suboptimal in a different situation (pvp) that has different priorities and challenges. So, allowing someone to create a character specifically for pvp is nothing but good news for a player like myself.

I also disagree with your point about pvp characters' conceptualization. Considering the way skills and items are unlocked (on a per-account basis) the design points to the idea that pvp characters are interchangable in the same way a character from a game like counterstrike is. Its hard to consider the customizability of pvp characters and *not* believe they're what arena.net plans you to be using in competitve pvp matches. As such, they're functionining as intended.

As to the issue of creating 'clones' of a pve character to remain competitive, this is where i'm losing track of your argument. From what i understood of the new pvp/pve character system, it seemed like everything was unlocked via either gaining a skill or IDing an item; that is - no freebies. If you could provide a link to where a.net said this wasn't the case, i'd appreciate it. The pvp items as well as unlocking all skills seemed a bwe thing rather than a full release thing.

Laz

Virtuoso · Mar 30, 2005, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Unfortunately, what the PvPers have not figured out yet is that they will have to "grind" to get all the skills in the game anways. I really don't see that being any different from creating individual characters. In my opinion, PvE characters should have a slight advantage. I mean, if you're so good at PvP with your PvP character then you should have no problem stemrolling a bunch of PvE carebears, even if they do have an advantage, right? And even if that's not the case, if you find a build that you particularly like you can roll up a normal, PvE character, level to 20 in a few days, and have the same advantage yourself. Personally, I wish that the PvP characters were used more for testing builds and not for actually "playing" the game. I know for sure that my main PvP character will not be created using the "unlock a PvP character" method.

-Virt

Scaphism · Mar 30, 2005, 04:56 AM // 04:56

I think Ensign laid out the problem pretty clearly: How many of you are planning to make a character for exploring and gaining skills, and another exact copy with better equipment? I know I will, if the system stays the same, but I'm not excited about making 2 of the same character.

Imagine all the people who are simply intimidated by the PVP aspect of the game? For the majority of them their PVP experience consists of ganking or being ganked in another game- those are not competetive settings, they're excersies in bullying. So imagine they get the guts to finally step foot into a PVP Arena, and they get steamrolled. And again. And again. And they can't figure it out, they've checked GWGuru for the build listing, and they have all the same skills their favorite guide says. They see the equipment listing: "Best sword available." Ok, they have the best sword available, and furthermore, it's a rare, 13-20 +15% vs plants, customized, +12% enchantment duration. It worked really well for them in the Wilds and through the end of the game.

So what's wrong? The Arena Net model says player skill is supposed to dominate, all else being equal. The problem in this situation is that the characters are not on equal footing- the RP character has NEVER seen a max damage, +damage while hexed sword, with free upgrade slots.

How disheartened will this person be when he/she realizes that they need to make a "fake copy" of their character just to get the equipment to compete fairly? Don't underestimate the value of equipment in this game- in case anyone has forgotten, the guild War Machine rode broken equipment advantages all the way up the ladder. Where are they now?

-----------
Slight shift, to a proposed solution:
-Don't make PVP characters need to unlock equipment like they need to unlock skills/runes.
-Give PVP characters good, max damage weapons, with Ok, instead of perfect mods. Giving characters perfect weapons for no effort trivializes all the hours of work that RP characters have invested in them, as in the example above.
-As Shrapnel Magnet pointed out, there is no way for PVP characters to customize weapons. They come with customized equipment, but if they are given a weapon that dropped from a monster, they cannot customize it. I'd change that- put a weaponsmith in the tombs and/or each guildhall. That way, PvP characters will start with competetive, but not perfect equipment. If you have a "perfect weapon" found or traded-for, you can give it to your PvP character.

In the end, PvP characters should have equipment that is roughly equivalent to what a RP character will have after completing all the missions with maybe a little searching/trading. If you want a better weapon for your PvP character, you need to work to earn it. You will need at least 1 RP character to unlock skills and runes with, so if you want that 'perfect' weapon, find the boss that drops it or start trading.

Sausaletus Rex · Mar 30, 2005, 05:23 AM // 05:23

The major fallacy here is the view that there is even a PvP and RP side of the game. As has been said, there is no such split. There's one game and many different ways of playing it, many different ways of enjoying it, and all functioning under the same rules and regulations. Guild Wars isn't an impressive graphical interface for a bunch of mini-games, it's a complete experience and if it doesn't hold together as a whole then it's failed somehow. We'll all play the same game, we'll just play it differently because that's how we choose to do it.

PvP characters are here as a shortcut. One, I think, is a bit unfortunate but that's the direction ArenaNet has taken. They provide easy access to a portion of the game at the cost of being restricted from others. What they shouldn't be doing is restricting everything else from any of those areas. There's nothing stopping an RP character from coming into a PvP areas so it can and should be as viable an option as any other character that can appear there. Once they start becoming not supliments but replacements to other characters then they do just that; restrict the options of other characters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

As to the issue of creating 'clones' of a pve character to remain competitive, this is where i'm losing track of your argument. From what i understood of the new pvp/pve character system, it seemed like everything was unlocked via either gaining a skill or IDing an item; that is - no freebies. If you could provide a link to where a.net said this wasn't the case, i'd appreciate it. The pvp items as well as unlocking all skills seemed a bwe thing rather than a full release thing.

Unlocking all skills at a click is a BWE thing. Or it had better be...

But that's not really the point. How many skills does your characer really need? How many mods, how many items? If you're competitive not many. Maybe 10~20% of those 150 skills you're talking about will be needed for you to form your builds. Less than that, if you have a specific buld in mind. Once you have those, why play a RP character? If you need a new skill or a new rune or something you can plop back onto your RP character and burn another skill point (or do the right quest), you'll have plenty left over. Heck, now it sounds like you can unlearn your secondary profession and unlock a whole slew of new skills in rapid order, too. You don't even need 3 RP characters, you just need the one. If there's account storage of items in place or a way to trade between your own characters that doesn't involve using other players as mules, then it's the same thing for any upgrades or nice items you might want your PvP character to have. At that point an RP character is useless to you because all the leveling up and acquiring of gear is going to take forever and you'll never get anything close to what a PvP character has anytime soon.

In short, there's no benefit to not having a clone of your RP character if you want to play PvP. You'll, of course, need an RP character to get the basics but that's a day or so of heavy play at worst, depending on what skills you like. It's not so much that things are being passed out "free" it's that there's little to no benefit for the alternative method. Someone who's put the time and effort into taking their RP character all the way to level 20 and the rest shouldn't feel like they need to play as a PvP character.

Of course, making PvP characters anything less than top notch means they'll only be used as an entry point into PvP play. They won't get used in high-level PvP simply because they'll be the inferior alternative in that case, the way the Ready-Made builds used to be.

There has to be some choice there. Some diversity. A fair argument to be made for either side. Advantages and disadvantages to an RP character and a PvP character so that people can use either. PvP characters need to stay around if ANet wants people to be able to take part in PvP easily without all the effort of playing through the game normally (Although, if they realize that there's some inherint flaw in their design that makes people not want ot actually play the game or to consider it as a grind, perhaps it would be best were they to address that and not simply create a workaround. Just because everyone can use it doesn't mean it's not having their cake and eating it, too.) yet at the same time leveling and progressing through things cannot be marginallized. It's a tough tightrope to wwalk but it certainly needs to be.

Lazarous · Mar 30, 2005, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sausaletus Rex

The major fallacy here is the view that there is even a PvP and RP side of the game. As has been said, there is no such split. There's one game and many different ways of playing it, many different ways of enjoying it, and all functioning under the same rules and regulations. Guild Wars isn't an impressive graphical interface for a bunch of mini-games, it's a complete experience and if it doesn't hold together as a whole then it's failed somehow. We'll all play the same game, we'll just play it differently because that's how we choose to do it.

This is something that i honestly have trouble wrapping my mind around. To me, the coop portions of the game are essentially single player - you're fighting against predesigned enemies with specific tactics in very specific situations. Given enough tries through a coop area, you're going to figure out some 'optimal' way to get through it, though this may differ for different skill sets.

PVP is a totally different scenario, and while it might be the same game with the same engine and rules as its single player (or coop) counterpart it really should be treated as another game. You can't give monsters AI equal to a humans, not without linking a whole bunch of supercomputers together for each AI unit. That right there is the dividing line between pvp and pve - the opposition you'll be facing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sausaletus Rex

There has to be some choice there. Some diversity. A fair argument to be made for either side. Advantages and disadvantages to an RP character and a PvP character so that people can use either. PvP characters need to stay around if ANet wants people to be able to take part in PvP easily without all the effort of playing through the game normally (Although, if they realize that there's some inherint flaw in their design that makes people not want ot actually play the game or to consider it as a grind, perhaps it would be best were they to address that and not simply create a workaround. Just because everyone can use it doesn't mean it's not having their cake and eating it, too.) yet at the same time leveling and progressing through things cannot be marginallized. It's a tough tightrope to wwalk but it certainly needs to be.

Again, i can't really understand this viewpoint. PvP avatars are precisely that, avatars that can be changed at whim. That you would invest some sort of emotion into a skillset is just something i don't get.
But fine, assume that this is a prerequisite for some people - the system would seem to balance fine if you require any custom pvp characters (not the templates) to have *everything* they use unlocked by a pve character. Functionally, there would be no difference between one persons pve character of a given level and a pvp counterpart they created with the same skillset because all the items the pve character has would be mirrored on a pvp counterpart.

As to whether a game has a 'flaw' if some player doesn't like one aspect of it, that is really inescapable with something as broad as guild wars. Any game that has a single player or coop componet and then some competitive multiplayer option will have people that prefer one or the other aspect of it. There is no flaw to fix because the gametypes are different as a result of technological limitations.

FrogDevourer · Mar 30, 2005, 03:40 PM // 15:40

This may sound like a ridiculous suggestion, but in addition to the current unlock system, skills/mods/equipment could be locked/unlocked in a periodic way.

Basically, PvP characters could have access to only 80/90% of the items/skills that have been unlocked. This small percentage would be locked for PvP for a week a so, then it would become available and another 10/20% would be locked for a week...

If this percentage is selected using ingame statistics of successful PvP builds or statistics of builds you've been using so far, it could force PvP players to adapt their setup regularly, and it could create a sort of "weekly PvP fashion". That's where RP players could be an interesting choice for PvP. They would be the only stable and reliable characters.

The average GW player would be more comfortable with a RP character and his favorite skills than with a new PvP toon which doesn't have access to his favorite setup. RP characters would have a minor edge even if they don't have access to the top notch equipment. On the other hand, a skilled player would be able to build a competitive character using 80% unlocked skills/mods and top notch equipment. Probably a 'clone of the week' but a competitive clone.

Similarly, a few mods/skills that you have not yet unlocked could be periodically unlocked for PvP characters. This would be an incentive to use these skills/mods on a test run before acquiring them with RP characters.

Dreamsmith · Mar 30, 2005, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

Don't underestimate the value of equipment in this game- in case anyone has forgotten, the guild War Machine rode broken equipment advantages all the way up the ladder. Where are they now?

Good question. If they aren't still near the top of the ladder, doesn't this imply that the situation has been fixed?

Ensign · Mar 30, 2005, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

From what i understood of the new pvp/pve character system, it seemed like everything was unlocked via either gaining a skill or IDing an item

You do not have to unlock base item types - rare 15-22 swords and 16 defense shields with perfect mods. While those things that you do have to unlock are commodities, good rares have always been the killer part of the equipment grind, and that's precisely the part that PvP characters get to bypass.

That said, there have been improvements in this area. Most items have been reduced from two mods to one, making it easier to find base types - only staves, wands, foci, and shields still have the two mod problem. The pool of available mods has been reduced as well, making it easier to find what you need, and you can now overwrite upgrades, allowing you to upgrade any item instead of having to hunt for one with free slots.

As I can see it there are only two outstanding issues with equipment availability - two mod rares, and high item requirements.

Two mod rares, given a suitibly large modifier pool, end up requiring a ton more grinding than one mod rares, simply because combinatronics come into play. Since these items can't be upgraded I'm not opposed to making them two mod, but they need to be very careful to limit the number of modifiers available to avoid creating ultra-rare items.

High requirements are the bigger issue. When you do find a top notch rare item in game, it usually has something like a 12 attribute requirement. PvP equipment, on the other hand, all has 9 attribute requirements. A PvP character clearly has a whole lot more flexability with lower reqs - a Warrior is going to love a 9 requirement shield, but a 12 requirement shield is likely headed for the salvage yard, even at the same mods. So they need to do something to synch up the requirements on various items for the sake of sanity.

As far as I can tell that's the sum of the issues. Full characters have inherent advantages in equipment selection and variety, so as long as they can find stuff comparable to what a PvP character gets I think balance is maintained. It isn't trivial to get a full character up to PvP capacity, but it is realistic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamsmith

Good question. If they aren't still near the top of the ladder, doesn't this imply that the situation has been fixed?

It implies that characters have been wiped - they thrived on the back of a couple of alpha testers who could grind out equipment for a month. As alpha testers no longer play on the live servers, that abuse is no longer relevant. Equipment still matters, but clearly not as much as it used to - and because of changes in structure to the test, you don't have the huge equipment disparities that you used to.

Peace,
-CxE

Bgnome · Mar 30, 2005, 08:56 PM // 20:56

i recall there being a workaround for customization a while back and was wondering if anyone figured if they fixed it yet. theoretically, you could create a premade pvp character and start with top level customized gear then hand it off to someone at your guild hall and remake a new char with the same name that could use that gear. wouldn't this make it so you could get that uber pvp gear on a new pve character?